Politics and Positivity with Dave Richards

This conversation is another one on politics, but it's actually a good one! It comes from a podcast episode with Dave, who is a longtime friend and photographer of mine if you’d prefer to listen.

Dave is one of these people who has realistic but optimistic insight into the world. He's had a career where he's lived all over the place. He spent a lot of time in the USA, he spent a great deal of time in the Middle East.

He has this depth of like cultural understanding that I don't, and he just makes me feel better about the state of the world. So this is a bit of an unscripted conversation because frankly, I wanted to let it run. Hopefully gives you a bit of a different perspective because I can tend to be a little bit nihilistic and he definitely helps with that.

Transcript

Brianne

Dave joins me today because Dave is my, what am I going to call you? I think you're like my optimism security blanket, which is a thing. That's a thing, that's a thing, I'm making that a thing. Because you're always the person I talk to on Instagram or whatever, and I'm like, well, this person has done this and the world has ended and there's no point in being alive anymore.

Brianne

Perhaps I'm overstating that as much. And then you always come back with, but yeah, like this happened last time and none of it really matters and they're all friends. I very specifically remember during the election, probably last time, you said they're actually all really good buds.

Dave

So this is all theatre. Yeah, which makes you sound like a conspiracy theorist. But like all politics, all media is designed to get us clicking and liking. And so it has to look like two sides, but all the stuff, particularly in New Zealand, is, I don't know, sound bites for the media. But then everything happens in select committees where they all generally get on and get a lot of work done. So it gives you a bit of faith. I don't know. And I've photographed quite a few politicians and I've never met one, this is in New Zealand, that isn't in it for the right reasons. So you might think I'm against them for this and that, but then they get into politics because they care, they want to

Brianne

make a change. It's a bit of a thankless job. It's not as grim as what you think. You'd think? No, and you do see the media were the headlines, which are usually when people are being particularly, they're probably frustrated or in the case of Winston Peters has been there for about 820 years. It's just sort of over and doesn't care, right? But I have to say when you see things like question time and you just see them hurling insults at one another, it doesn't fill you with confidence that these adults can run this country. It's very dated, isn't it? Yeah, and apparently it's also manufactured, like they already know what they're going to be saying backwards and forwards. So why bother doing it?

Dave

They're scripted. Yeah, that's... And the questions and answers are often submitted before. Hence the answers.

Brianne

What do we, what do we, what is that for?

I don't know.

Dave

Us? I've watched it a few times. Okay. Yeah. I'm not judging. I remember watching a couple late at night once. I think it was Nikki Kaye at the time and Jacinda Ardern before she was Prime Minister. And they were talking about the rights of the child or something. They were passing it off. My partner and I were watching it late at night and we were agreeing with them both. And I think they ended up agreeing. It was really good.

Brianne

Because Nikki was the lady who's just recently passed away from breast cancer, right?

Dave

Yeah. I think her and I'm pretty sure Jacinda Ardern were at separate times MP for Auckland Central. I'm not sure if Jacinda was actually, but.

Brianne

I wouldn't have a clue. Interesting. That's what I think of Jacinda, what you want. If you think that she ruined this country, I don't think you're paying any attention. That's probably some bias creeping in there.

Dave

But also if people think that because of what they see on TV, if you met her, you'd probably like her.

Brianne

I think she'd asked to come and come to a take a few times and I'd always tried to stay away from politics. It wasn't something that I had been interested in, but also it comes with a whole lot of baggage.

Finally we said yes. Wasn't that in 2022?

Dave

I was there the day before.

Brianne

For the Barbie shoot? Like it was a big terrifying week of stress. But I remember walking up to her and the first thing I thought was, oh, she's way shorter than I thought she was. And then because I have no ability to not get stage fright in front of people I consider impressive or even just anybody.

Brianne

Actually, I'm intimidated by everyone. I walked up to her and there was like this flash of like, oh God, across Jacinda's face, because I obviously made a face or forgot to breathe or forgot my name or did something stupid. And she was absolutely nice. However, she did disappoint me because we got a 30 minute chat with her at some point later during that day, and I asked her, single-use plastic, there is a seriously easy solution. Why aren't we putting a tax on virgin plastic and putting all that cash into infrastructure fund,

Brianne

And her response was, oh, it's just a bit more complicated. I have no doubt it's more complicated than that. That isn't a reason not to do it. And that seems like a really easy solution. I mean, imagine if you could put,

Brianne

it could be as little as a cent, right? So the consumer really wouldn't notice a cent on say a Zuru toy. And yet there's so many of those things sold. Imagine the recycling facilities you'd be able to put in. Or Coke.

Brianne

You're not going to notice.

Dave

Things like that, though. I often wonder if that is the role of politics and politicians or if it's the role of businesses. Because you look at what you've done and the plastic you've removed from the ecosystem. And I don't know many people starting businesses today that pollute on purpose. Like everybody's a lot more aware of it. Totally. So my thing, when I was talking about the optimism, is whenever I look at the world,

Dave

and at the time when you zoom in, right now it looks pretty terrible, but every 10, 20 years it improves. So what we're looking at now, it does always get better. People, I don't know, I think we live in a good world.

Brianne

What if it doesn't though? You're absolutely right, cyclically, it does. Actually, I will go back to your point. It absolutely is the role of business to do better. Historically, businesses haven't, but as you are pointing out, historically, businesses have got better. But is it because they've had to through regulation? Health and safety regulation would be an example of that. Or is it because consumers have demanded more and there are examples of that too. So perhaps both exert some kind of pressure.

Brianne

Just because something has happened historically, does that mean it will in the future? No. I wanted you to lie to me. That was one of the optimism things.

Dave

Damn it. I don't know if it does, but even pollution and that. Like I look at, when I first moved to Christchurch, there was a bit of a smog chimneys and that changed. But you look at London in the 50s and 60s when people died from it, where it would get smog trapped over the inversion layer. So we are improving.

Brianne

Like in The Crown?

Dave

Yeah, exactly like The Crown. But we feel that we're improving, or that things are bad now, but we have improved quite a lot.

Brianne

Yeah. And the anti-vax movement is a good sign, right? Because all these people saying, oh, the vaccines don't do anything good. RFK, I don't want to talk about him, he fills me with so much rage. But they don't remember, or they weren't around, for what it was like when people dropped dead of things like diphtheria or rubella or even measles, right? You don't remember what life was like prior to vaccinations. I really hope we don't have to find out again for these people to remember though. That's what worries me. Insulin was quite good. Yeah, it was a good creation.

Brianne

Well done. Oh my God, I've forgotten who did that and when.

Dave

Dr Insulin, I made that up.

Brianne

Well, he didn't even patent it. But now of course we're charging $1,000. Well, not we, they.

Brianne

In some areas. You have, as we've already determined, a deeper understanding of politics than I ever do. I mean, I didn't even know what libertarians are. Because that guy, Damien Grant, who writes articles on stuff, I probably disagree with 101 out of 102 things he says. That's a really specific number.

Brianne

But then he'll say something like, oh, why do you have that opinion? Because you're a dick about everything else.

Dave

Yeah, it's almost that whole 'Why do you have that opinion? Because you're a dick about everything else.' Yeah. It's almost that whole broken clock is right twice a day thing, which probably almost be mathematically correct for what you said. But I find that when we get into this football teamism, where it's like we've got our side and then there's the devil, but sometimes the other side says good things and it's just sort of, I don't know, I think maybe I'm a bit more understanding of, whenever I try to convince someone of something and I'm arguing with them,

Dave

it doesn't work. So it's more, what have we got in common? What do we, it's like we talk about climate denial and stuff like that, but I'm like, nobody likes pollution. Are we angling it? Are we wording it wrong? Are we hitting pressure points that they think is political? Like where people think, oh climate change, that must be a political view. No, it's common sense. But because what they associate it with is parties they don't like or a football team they don't like.

Brianne

Yeah. You've got to meet people where they are, right? And you've got to see what you have in common. It's the one-on-one negotiations. Yeah, but we don't do that. No, we're becoming more and more separated, which is, if you were a conspiracy theorist, which I don't know, I feel like there's a basis of truth in this, but I feel like it is manufactured, these divisions, because the idea of someone being left or right is stupid. Often share beliefs of both sides.

Dave

Yeah, or more polarised, but that can be algorithms. True, yeah, because you start to exist in your little ecosystem. And it shows you what you want to see. And I have been radicalised online. Yeah. By Taylor Swift.

Brianne

That's reasonable. I don't get the music. I'm, you know, it's not ragey enough for me. I'm a Three Days Grace woman.

Dave

There's something for everyone.

Brianne

My dad and I were talking about the other day, actually, and I was, I'm immune to propaganda because I can critically think. I don't even remember what it was about. It was something to do with Palestine and how something horrendous, something else horrendous had happened to a group of Palestinians.

Brianne

And then it turned out that it wasn't true, but because I wanted to believe it and expected it to be true, I didn't bother looking to see whether it was. It wasn't even from a decent source. It was just goes to show you that even if you think you know what to look for, you don't. It's very easy to fall for manufactured shit.

Dave

I think you and I are similar like that. We'll look outside ourselves, whereas a lot of people don't.

Dave

Or I start thinking, I look at people who share different views to mine. Have they been radicalised? I'm like, what have they been radicalised about? Because we all have certain things that we, or I had it once where someone asked me of a political opinion of mine and I gave them what I thought

Dave

and then they gave me my views on about 20 items, exactly what they were. And they said, oh, because of this, I know you believe this and this. And it was quite frightening.

Brianne

I was like, well, that predictable? Well, we can be. Interesting. So much of what we believe and think to be true is not necessarily have any basis in fact.

Dave

Yeah, or it can, but it's, we have tightly held beliefs, but I often think it can be in the middle, the truth of it.

Dave

Which I don't like to think, but.

Brianne

Because you've travelled to the Middle East quite a bit.

Dave

Yep. How old were you? I wasn't that long ago. Gosh, how old am I now? I was probably 40, early 40s. But yeah, lived there and really liked it. And I don't know when I see things, I guess the media only wants to show you the worst of something or something that gets you clicking or arguing, but you go to the Middle East and everyone's quite fantastic and lovely and yeah. It's a beautiful, really safe place, really lovely.

Brianne

All the people I've known who've travelled there, which isn't very many, they will say it is wonderful and it's not in any way restricted as you think it is. I mean, there are countries in the Middle East, of course, that are far from forward-thinking, and particularly when it comes to women's rights and LGBTQ rights, but I don't think it's anywhere near as terrible as it's portrayed on purpose.

Dave

You don't see it like what people tell you. It's actually, I don't know, I thought everyone was very polite and patient.

Brianne

I just imagine they're beautiful. I don't know why. I've probably overcompensated by now, assuming that all of it looks like Petra, which obviously it doesn’t.

Dave

It is beautiful and the people are beautiful. It's quite peaceful. Ramadan was actually quite beautiful as well. Like it was just a really slow time and you learn about the culture and what that

Brianne

meant and everything. It was quite nice. You have photographed and talked to and have spent a decent, because photographer you have met. Every single time somebody comes up in conversation, somebody famous comes up in conversation, oh, you and I met, da, da, da, da, da.

Dave

Not everyone, but it's just,

Dave

Just being a photographer, I think even when I go out, there's so many people you know, because you work with them, and it's just your job. But yeah, my thing about that, where I'm quite optimistic on it, I don't know, you get to see what they have in common. A classic example, actually, Gerry Brownlee had a podcast, which I think he stopped when he became Speaker,

Dave

and it was called The Backroom of Politics. And he had lots of people on there, and it was actually one of my favourite podcasts. It was brilliant. But he had Golriz, the Greens MP, on a couple of times, or one in particular, where they were talking

Dave

about the environment and what they thought. But they had this real common ground where they were agreeing on things, and you could see, oh, we've all got the same wants at heart. It was actually quite brilliant. Also, one with Shane Jones and Willie Jackson on co-governance, that is a really good listen.

Dave

I know, I know, it's incredible. It's a really good podcast. Hmm.

Brianne

You are right. And I do keep saying this to other people and then I struggle to remember it myself that ultimately we do by and large if we want the same thing, right?

Dave

Yeah, and particularly in this country. Like, even though there's lots of things we're sort of at loggerheads against, nobody, I mean, admittedly, they want to cut them or change them, but you don't get people who come in and say, oh, we want to stop benefits, we want to stop this or that. It's not like other countries where they're diametrically opposed.

Dave

At least here, there's some things, you know, we don't really care about, they're off the table.

Brianne

You want to achieve the same outcome, but you just have very differing opinions how to get there. Yeah, I mean, yeah, nobody wants more people having to live in their cars, I'm sure. Yeah. Hopefully. Unfortunately, though, this particular coalition government does seem to ignore sort of experts in science in favour of, I'm not sure what in favour of, wishful thinking.

Dave

What do you think they're ignoring at the moment?

Brianne

Well, there's an awful lot of reports. I mean, a good one actually was the budget and the oil and gas bill, which is obviously something I'm particularly interested in, and repealing the moratorium on exploration. It takes seven to 10 years from finding something to extracting it. So even if we found something next year, in 2026, we wouldn't be pulling it out of the ground until the earliest 2033.

Brianne

By that time, carbon is gonna be costing, unless, you know, we're all wrong. 97% of scientists are wrong, climate change is fake. Which, God, the thing is, how much would we love that to be true? Right?

Brianne

That's the side of the argument I think they're forgetting. But carbon is gonna be incredibly expensive per tonne by the end, right? So this country will be facing an enormous deficit for that to occur. That was provided in a report, basically a financial breakdown of what this 200 million in co-investment alongside oil and gas companies for extraction. But they chose to ignore it anyway and I find that baffling. There is lots and lots of…

Brianne

I read an article. It was, I will say, scathing about Shane Jones. So there was significant bias in that article itself, but it was saying how he himself often ignores evidence and reports

Brianne

because he doesn't need experts. He'd rather go with his gut. That is very irresponsible decision-making and disappointing to hear.

Dave

Yeah, well, with the process taking that long, I didn't realise that. I think, do you think we're gonna become a country like others where every time the government changes, they'll just flip things?

Brianne

Yeah, that worries me.

Dave

And then we'll just go back and forth.

Brianne

So we never achieve anything.

Dave

Yeah, like almost like they do in the States when a president gets in and signs everything. Yeah, like he did stop, I don't know if it was the exploration, but when the previous government stopped, I think it was the nuclear-free moment, we simply imported coal. Yes. Which I know you have to do in the meantime, but it actually added to it, but it looked good on paper. It's such a double-edged sword that you think the other side have got in, and it's

Dave

immediately worse than your side, but what they were doing wasn't actually that effective anyway.

Dave

Whether there's a way around it that we can improve.

Brianne

And they shifted a lot of boilers away from oil onto wood pellets. Less thermodynamically efficient, worse for the environment. Looks better on paper though, you're absolutely right. And that's exactly the same thing. So both sides, if you can look at it that way, both sides of the political debate do the same thing.

Brianne

They make things look better than they are and ignore scientific evidence, and that's very frustrating. And I don't understand why.

Dave

They do also have to work with coalition partners, which I think always changes what expectations people have of their party. Like I remember in Australia, when Julia Gillard was our prime minister. And I forget what it was, some election she got in,

Dave

but she had to change a few things based on partners that she had in the coalition or senators or whatever it was. But at the time that the media were doing a big thing, oh, she's a liar because of this and that. And it's like, no, no, she's just negotiated and had to make some changes.

Brianne

You don't get what you want. That's the whole point of compromising.

Brianne

Although I did, is it in the 12 laws of power or the 40 laws of power? I've never read the book.

Dave

That's pretty psychotic.

Brianne

Is it?

Dave

Yeah. I read it, it's a bit Silicon Valley bro, but there were certain things that I was like, I don't know about that. That's a bit sociopathic.

Brianne

I remember reading a breakdown and there was some of them that I was like, well, that's quite manipulative.

Dave

Or in negotiation too, a lot of really manipulating, destroy, destroy, double down. I was like, I don't know.

Brianne

There is a whole side of the debating argument who say, you actually shouldn't compromise because you both lose. That's not how I'd look at it. It's very unlikely that one side is extremely right and the other side is extremely wrong or has no merit in what they're asking for.

Dave

Oh, you've got to read the book. I'm scared of it.

Dave

It's quite frightening. In part. Okay, now I'm more intrigued. There were some things you go, okay, that's okay. But there were bits that I was like, yeah, I don't know about that.

Brianne

It's been weaponised by podcast bros.

Dave

Yeah, okay.

Brianne

The irony of continually hassling podcast bros on a podcast.

Dave

The bro-sphere.

Brianne

The bro, yeah. Spotify still has Andrew Tate on Spotify.

Dave

I wonder why.

Brianne

I don't know. Does he have something on the CEO of Spotify? I don't know how any of that's accepted.

Dave

His clothing is always too tight. It's very annoying.

Brianne

Yeah. I remember the first time I heard him, I don't even know why we got on Andrew Tate, but remember the first time I heard about him and saw some of his quotes, I thought, well, that's not real.

Dave

No, but actually say that, Oh no. You know, I think that existed. I may have actually heard about him through you. Oh! In an Instagram story, because I remember a few people I know were like, this guy sucks. And it was obviously, he obviously did. But having listened to it, I was like, oh, and this is a problem with algorithms. If people say that person sucks, does that then get multiplied and pushed upon people who would find that it would be a receptive audience for them? I often, if I find something now that I don't like,

Dave

I think, no, I'm not sharing that. I'm just, I don't know, hoping they whizz away quietly because it is a worry.

Brianne

We should have more responsibility in what we share. And it is something we should all be mindful of, particularly with misinformation. So it's not just that, but you are also manipulating other people's algorithms. Manipulating sounds a bit strong, I suppose, but you are.

Dave

But you wonder if you're not bringing it to an audience or the likes and shares, or not necessarily likes, but the shares in someone like Andrew Tate's case blows them up a bit.

Brianne

Yeah, you're adding to its viral moment.

Dave

Yeah. Yeah, you're adding to its viral moment. Yeah, yeah. Although then when people say I wouldn't give someone a platform, I do believe that sunlight being the greatest disinfectant, when you see him, it's actually quite a laugh.

Brianne

It's very easy to be like, oh yeah, no, he is a piece of shit. That's fine. Unfortunately, you've got 13 year old boys who are like, oh, oh, okay, no, he speaks sense because I am not getting what I need growing up. Can't speak to the experience of a teenage boy, but so that makes sense because I want bitches.

Brianne

I'm gonna t-shirt with that written on it. Dear God.

Dave

Well, yeah, it's strange. Zero appeal.

Brianne

Yeah, but unfortunately because I've sort of faced a post about how we need to report Andrew Tate's podcast because it was a disgrace. Of course, I searched on Spotify to find it. And now Spotify is like, oh, would you like to listen to this new episode from Andrew Tate?

Brianne

Fuck no, I wouldn't.

Dave

Yeah. With that whole platforming voices you don't like, I told you about Gavin Newsom's podcast. Have you listened to that at all?

Brianne

No, I haven't, I forgot. It's really good. He is brave. Yeah, Governor of California. I don't know how else to describe him. Yeah.

Dave

But he's had Steve Bannon on and people, Charlie Kirk, other people that are so opposed to his viewpoints. Yeah. But his whole thing is about having a discussion and seeing what we have in common. I like that. It's a great idea. Yeah.

Brianne

It is a little bit sunlighty disinfectant-y actually, because if you can have a discussion with someone who you share no beliefs with,

Brianne

you might actually find you meet in the middle more. And then again, we go to that point that ultimately everyone's the same thing.

Dave

Yeah. He's quite open-minded too. Up on something and he'll realise, oh, maybe I was it to hear a politician say, I think I was wrong there or maybe what, why do you think I was wrong? Rather than going straight to his defence, he's really grown on me a lot. I thought, always thought he was really impressive,

Dave

but to admit, I don't know, just some of the things on it. I'm like, he's quite open-minded.

Brianne

Admitting you're wrong feels a little bit, nibbles at your ego, but the more you do it, and the more you realise you can't possibly be correct all the time, the better off we all would be. And I don't think I've ever heard a politician say that they were wrong.

Dave

Or he'll say, why do you think I was wrong? And it is an actual genuine conversation, which also leads me to podcasts, I think, because you have that long form discussion. It's much better than a silly soundbiting question time or gotcha questions from a journalist. It's just, you know.

Brianne

Yeah, short form content in any respect. It doesn't get across nuance.

Dave

Yeah, which to make me sound like a conspiracy theorist, makes me think that we'll see Gavin Newsom, 2028 as democratic candidate. And all these open-minded interviews will get people on the left and right going, oh yeah, yeah, I agree with what he said there to Steve Bannon or someone like that.

Brianne

So you think it's part of a very long run-up?

Dave

Well, not necessarily. I don't think it's that. I don't think it's manipulative or thought out or, do you know what I mean, disingenuous because it's a really genuine podcast, but I think it's...

Brianne

But it could still be part of a strategic... Strategy is not necessarily manipulative, it can be, but healthy conversation or open conversation, which both sides are doing. Yeah, I've thought on occasion to see, I don't know, Judith Collins would be interesting. She's a successful woman. She was, I'm not sure if she still is, the Minister of Science and things,

Brianne

so obviously we would share some interest there. Particularly to talk about the GE bill, which is not great as written. Right. But then the other side of me is like, people would get really cross about that because she is diametrically opposed

Brianne

to a lot of what this podcast is supposed to stand for. But this podcast stands for, and these discussions should really stand for science and exploring a little bit of the world, but also having genuine conversations and genuine knowledge.

Brianne

I'm too terrified because she... Why would she say yes? Fuck no.

Brianne

She'd be like, hell no.

Dave

No, to have a conversation like that. Another thing too, because people think the current government on some things are diametrically opposed to the previous, but when you look at the Paris Agreement, their targets are currently, I think, about to be strict to them. What James Shaw signed up to, which people don't often think. Because you've got two parties bleeding on about

Dave

how we should just withdraw to being in the first in that, right? The MMP thing again. Do you think MMP is good? To be honest, I find it gets us all a bit engaged. I do think that you hear voices that are a bit more extreme on both sides, that you don't normally hear, to the point that often I think could Labour in National dual coalition.

Brianne

Yeah, well, our Deputy Prime Minister is a guy who got 8% of the vote, right? Yeah. It's a good example of that. And it would appear by the public response to his bills, that that is not representative of what Aotearoa wants. So should he be in a position of such great power, I would argue no. But you're right, you don't get the streams of the two-party thing, which doesn't seem to be going well in other countries. You told me about the Swiss thing. Tell me about the Swiss thing again.

Dave

My understanding of it is it proportional, I'm now I'm gonna sound like a real idiot. There's gonna be some expert out there.

Brianne

There'll be a Swiss person listening.

Dave

A representational, proportionate democracy where you do have your heads of state and everything like that, but it's just things are a bit more decided without some people's agreement on certain things, so a bit more like referendum on certain things,

Dave

which occasionally I think could be bad, depending on what you're being asked the question of, but it seems to work quite effectively without all the theatre. But my thing here where this might be grand theory, where all the parties similarly want the same thing, is because you have your left wing who are hardcore left and your right wing sticking to that.

Dave

I just think, why can't they cross pollinate? Like when you look at this last election, I think the numbers were there that National could have done a partnership with the Greens. But they're too opposed on certain issues. And I'm like, well, surely if you play to your strengths,

Dave

the Greens should be part of every government and ask for within cabinet certain portfolios that they want. That would make sense to me. But because of other issues or because of voters, they might go off their party.

Brianne

Was it not the Greens that said they would, I don't know if it was the selection cycle or the previous where they said they will not work with National.

Dave

Yeah, they did say that.

Brianne

Which is such a silly thing to do.

Dave

It's a shame.

Brianne

So many people I know would love a blue-green party.

Dave

Yeah. Didn't we used to have a Teal Party? Oh, we did. I don't know what that meant though. I know there's a section within National called the Blue Greens. Right. Yeah. But I agree, like there's certain policies of either that I'm not a fan of, but I think something like that could work.

Brianne

I do not understand why people think it is economy or environment or economy or social issues. You can actually have a happy, healthy economy. It doesn't mean growth at all costs though, obviously. And you know, an environment that's better protected and people that live happily ever after, which is a silly, trite way of saying it, but there are countries who are eating that balance far,

Brianne

far better. But of course then you get called a communist, which is hilarious because people that call you communist or socialist probably don't know what that means. Marxist is being thrown around a lot.

Dave

That's very in fashion.

Brianne

Yes, I had to Google what it was because I don't really understand a lot of what Marxism was. And actually a lot of it sounds great. I don't think people who throw Marxism around know that actually some of it kind of sounds utopian. Yeah, probably don't work with human nature.

Dave

The idea does. Don't look too closely into it, it's a bit dodgy. Oh, okay, tell me more. Yeah, some of the ideas get a little bit odd and some of his letters to Engels. Oh, okay. They're a bit dated. Oh dear, right. But I think that as a blanket, but it's like any ideology, there's good ideas in, yeah, to use that as an excuse to disparage it.

Dave

You know, what don't you like about it or what don't you think works? But even the term socialist, because I wouldn't consider myself a socialist at all and would probably not use it as an insult or a compliment, but our society here, or the system we have is largely socialist in lots of ways.

Brianne

And it works pretty well. Way more socialist than people realise. Yeah, yeah.

Dave

Right? Yeah. They talk about it like it's a disparaging term, but I'm like, well, we have public transport. We have things that work.

Brianne

Our community or government owned. Yeah, yeah. Again, my very rough understanding, because I don't actually have a great deal of interest in politics, although it's quite a bit. That can be good though. That can be good as well, not. Yeah, because you're sort of coming at it from a different angle. But communists, no one owns anything but the government, to my understanding.

Brianne

Socialists, the workers own the stuff that they do, right? So it's almost like an extension of ESOP or you're in an employee share scheme. So you're also working not only for your wage, but also for a share of the profit, which a lot of companies do now anyway, which is fabulous, right? That doesn't sound insulting.

Dave

You often hear that where they'll say the national debt per household is this or that, or per individual. So I guess that makes sense from that viewpoint too.

Brianne

Yeah. But we're a lot more socialist than the States. Healthcare would be a perfect example.

Dave

Which to me, like they would probably see as communist, but I'm like, oh, it kind of works. Like when I've been in the States where you see people and they're walking or limping and I think, oh, right. So because of our health care system, a problem like that, that may have contributed to this would have been fixed. It's quite frightening.

Dave

And I don't think how right-wing you are, nobody here thinks that's a bad thing that we have healthcare, universal healthcare. I've never heard an argument against it.

Brianne

And it starts to worry me. I think it was David Seymour not too long ago when he talked about creating a sort of a pay-as-you-go healthcare system. So his argument was, and on the face of it, the argument sounds fair, right?

Brianne

So you're taking people who can afford it out of the public healthcare system, which is massively overloaded and they are paying for what they need. So they get what they need. But the problem is you're taking a massive chunk of income out of the public health care system, which will gradually be less and less and less and less and less funded.

Brianne

And eventually you'll only have a pay to play health care system. That is what will happen.

Dave

It's a slippery slope, isn't it?

Brianne

A little bit, but then where does that end up? You can't fault his theory there. He is trying to take the load off a health system which is struggling and has been underfunded. That doesn't lead to a good place.

Dave

One of my things with that superannuation year is a really big thing where people say, should the age be extended, blah, blah, blah, but they don't want to upset voters. I just think that's common sense that they should be extended. We're all living longer, we're all working longer. Plus, I think it's a controversial opinion,

Dave

I think it should be means tested.

Brianne

Yes, and I would go one step further and say it should be occupation-based. I don't know if “tested” is the right word, but it should depend on your occupation. So Greece, for example, my parents told me this a while ago - hairdressers could retire at 45 because they had exposure to pretty horrendous things back in the day, so they had greater occupational risk.

Brianne

Builders, farmers - it’s probably not so much the same for farmers because they work on their own land. But right, you’re more broken at 65 than you are if you’re an office worker.

Dave

I think you’d get called a socialist or something.

Brianne

Oh God, no. I haven’t been called a socialist all week and it’s Friday, so I’m due. What did someone say on YouTube the other day? I think it was rage bait. And really, if you’re gonna rage bait, try and be clever about it.

Brianne

But they said, “Ovaries detected, opinion denied.”

Dave

What was that, sorry?

Brianne

“Ovaries detected, opinion denied” or ignored or something. It’s just, it’s not really very insulting. You’re just a twat.

Dave

Nice try.

Brianne

Yeah, I just, I don’t care overly.

Dave

Opinions like that, that’s just designed for rage bait, isn’t it? It’s just a shut down comment. That’s a good example of that not talking. It’s just stupid.

Brianne

You’re just like, “That’s a very good question.” And people say they can tell. I don’t know what to look for to be able to tell.

Dave

I know where people will click on a profile or something, then see who they’re following or who their followers are. And it’s just, they’re talking nonsense to everybody.

True.

Brianne

Or if they’re repeating the same comment to a bunch, then it’s easy to spot. But there’s also a lot of people who never bother filling out their profile because maybe they have a hundred different ones that comment all sorts of nonsense on people and they are real people because there are people out there who have that opinion about women. Yeah. It’s not an unusual opinion for people — predominantly blokes — to say that women don’t have

Brianne

the emotional temperament to run businesses.

Brianne

Which is really irritating because a lot of people don’t consider anger as an emotion  - because men can show anger, that’s okay, but women can’t show sadness, that’s not okay - which is harmful on both sides, right? But those opinions definitely exist out there, but those people are just loud. Like the climate confused, because I’m not going to call them climate change deniers

Brianne

anymore. I think that’s more patronising and I’m on board with that. But there’s not as many of them as it feels. They’re just really loud about it. And we don’t need to convince them anyway. And you’re never going to convince them, ever. Episode I covered about it a couple of weeks ago, basically. It’s part of their belief system. It’s part of their core belief system.

Brianne

You’re just not going to change it.

Dave

I often wonder if 90% of the population are in the middle and 5% are on either end. I don’t even know. It’s five percent. It might be even one. Yeah. But it’s so loud. The loudest voice.

Brianne

Yeah. I think most people are quite moderate.

Dave

Yeah. I often think that when I think of the States, because from what we see here, you’d look at their system and think, well, maybe going back a month you would. Right now it’s throats. It’s pretty toxic, it’s bad. Yet you go over there and everyone’s lovely. And they all seem to get on, I don’t know.

Brianne

Individually, Americans are some of the nicest people you’ll ever meet. Put them in a group and the extreme opinions come out and it’s bizarre. Although I will not, I do enjoy, or I did do, I haven’t been there. Yeah. Yeah, it’s a little bit like lobbing a grenade and stepping back though.

Brianne

It’s terribly selfish and dramatic.

Dave

Were they polite? They always seemed to have fantastic manners.

Brianne

One time at a Thanksgiving they weren’t.

Dave

And how did you meet these people?

Brianne

They were a distributor who have now become, I guess you could say, friends. Yeah, yeah. The family was divided. And I didn’t know that. And this, in my defence, was quite innocent. I did not know that one side of the family was, I guess you’d say more blue collar, right? Versus more sort of, it’s white collar, right? I think so. Yeah. So they were roughly split. This was Trump’s first term when he’d just been elected. And yeah, it was a shame how nasty family members turned on one another.

Brianne

Probably two years ago, my dad and I did not share the same opinion on parties. Although, as we were saying earlier, we shared the same want for the country to become more productive and happy for everybody, right? But we didn’t think, I didn’t think either

Brianne

the other one’s party of choice would do that. So dad was previously a National voter. I’m not sure where he is now, but I don’t think he’s very happy with what’s going on. And I’m sort of, I’ve never really been a party line voter per se.

Dave

More policy?

Brianne

Very much policy, which I do wonder if we should get rid of. Can you get rid of parties in general and just vote for people or policies? I don’t know.

Dave

I’ve just wondered whether it’s not our system that’s dated, like that whole Westminster arguing, debating, as we said, the questions right now. It’s just a bit dumb.

Brianne

It just seems unnecessarily theatrical.

Dave

And they’re making all the laws and it happens in select committees. I don’t know. I think part of that -

Brianne

Get rid of the drama.

Dave

Yeah, the disaffection with it could be that people like us allow, it can turn you off. Yes. Yeah, and to be honest, the way you vote on policies, it never really changes. So whatever you watch isn’t gonna sway your opinion.

Brianne

It just makes you angrier, regardless where you sit. It’s peculiar to me that people don’t change who they vote for based on policies and things that are happening. The fact that, again to use America as an example, that they’ve registered Democrats or Republicans.

Dave

Yeah, that’s odd, isn’t it?

Brianne

Why is that a thing?

Dave

Yeah. Well, some of my most interesting people that I talk to have voted for four different parties in New Zealand. Like, they alter where they stand depending on what’s going on. I find that fascinating.

Yeah, I - you’re more open-minded.

Brianne

I think when I was married, I still had the same opinion. I was possibly less extreme in some of, well, I don’t think I have particularly extreme views. Well, so in saying that, I did do a, what are you?

Brianne

Because everyone kept calling me a socialist or a communist. And I said, well, I don’t think I am, but I’m going to do this big interactive quiz. And it’s helped me that I’m mostly anarchist.

Dave

Okay.

Brianne

Which, by the way, I’m not. I’m not actually out there throwing Molotovs. No. And I have funny, I don’t know, I’ve never been an anarchist. I don’t want the fall of society. I want change, but I don’t - No. Oh, see, I don’t think you’re that at all. No!

Dave

I think you want a lot of change and you want things to happen. But if why you may have triggered that is because I think you can see a lot further and a lot more clearly than a lot of people because of your science background and you will just get up and change it. Yeah. As opposed to going through a system which politics in a way, businesses that change things, are making politics seem outdated, just as the laws that come in around AI,

Dave

it’s moving faster than politicians can table laws.

Brianne

Yeah, which is scary. We need to be doing something, and I am surprised that they’re not, about video AI. Because people are now sending videos, and it’s not just the older generation, it’s just baby boomers,

Brianne

but people are sending me videos that I think are obviously AI, but they’re like, oh my God, have you seen this? There was one that did get me on the first round, but when you watch it again, it was obvious, but it said, Canada’s declared war on America.

Brianne

And I thought, that cannot be true. But it was a newsreader who looked very familiar in the typical American CNN setup. And immediately afterwards, the natural CNN reporter came on and was like, did you believe that or blah, blah, blah. That goes to show you how good this shit is. And in six months time, no one will be able to tell.

Brianne

That’s terrifying because you could alter so much without realising why haven’t we got laws? I don’t know how you control it. I don’t know anyone near enough about it.

Dave

But - that was someone’s usage or image or... Yeah. Yeah. I don’t... One that creeped me out, I saw one of President Obama speaking and it was that well done that I thought, oh yeah, I’m totally watching him. And then he just started saying things that were a little bit odd. Yeah. And it was, yeah, but then they used that as an example of this is what AI can do.

Brianne

And I was like, oh, okay, that’s not ideal. And you’ve got smart lobbyists, for lack of a better term, I don’t know what you’d call these guys behind the scenes, right? Who would know to do it subtly enough that it wouldn’t be jarring and that eventually over time, you’d be like, you’d fully believe that,

Brianne

even though none of this was real.

That’s scary.

Dave

And there have been examples of that. I remember a couple, not even AI, but with Nancy Pelosi, where she was slowed down a bit and it sounded a bit like she was slurring. And then they played the actual footage and she wasn’t. And on both sides, there’ve been examples of that where they can make people seem a bit

Brianne

odd. It’s certainly not just a bad right wing at all. Yeah. No, not at all. And it’s the same thing with soundbites, as you were saying earlier. Yeah. Well, did that make you feel better? Honestly, he is one of these people

Brianne

that just brings sort of calm and a little bit more, I’ll say it again, perspective to conversations because it does feel like the world is an absolute dumpster fire at times, but there are lots of good things going on. And I really appreciate his insight on many, many, many issues. If you want to go and learn a little bit more about him, his name is Dave Richards, and I’ll put his details in the show notes if you want to go and learn a little bit more.

‍