How to go from Tide Pools, to TedX, to TV, with Sharks. With Melissa Cristina Márquez.

June 8th was World Oceans Day, and if you listen to this podcast, you know this is a day I am very much here for - because I am obsessed with the ocean… for good reason.

But rather than going on about it myself, for this episode I thought we could celebrate World Oceans Day with the help of another ocean obsessive: Melissa Cristina Márquez.

Melissa is a marine science education expert based in Australia, and is known as "the most enthusiastic shark scientist" people ever meet. Her work has been featured in Science, NPR, Vogue, Allure, InStyle, GQ, Seeker, Popular Science, and showcased on Disney+, BBC, National Geographic, Discovery Channel, Acciona, and Good Morning America.

As well as being a scientist and educator, Melissa is also an author of children’s books including the Wild Survival series (Scholastic) and Mother of Sharks (Madre de los Tiburones), with her latest, Sea of Constellations (Océano de Constelaciones).

Transcript

Brianne West
Kia ora kaitiaki and welcome to Now That's What I Call Green. I'm your host, Brianne West, an environmentalist and entrepreneur trying to get you as excited about our planet as I am. I'm all about creating a scientific approach to making the world a better place — without the judgement — and making it fun. And of course, we’ll be chatting about some of the most amazing creatures we share our planet with.
So if you are looking to navigate through everything green (or not so green), you’ve come to the right place.

By 2040, if we have hit 1.5 degrees of warming, 90% of coral reefs will have died off. And 2040 might be optimistic, because it was just last week that a report came out showing scientists now reckon we’ll hit 1.5 degrees in about two years.
Yeah, so that's sped up. And I think that’s probably the statistic I find most upsetting when we talk about environmental impacts from climate change.
I’m lucky enough to dive, and I spend a decent amount of time on coral reefs — not nearly enough — and it kind of... it sounds really ridiculous, but they are frickin' magic. They are the most beautiful places on earth and you don’t really care about anything else when you’re down there.
To lose them would be horrific.

Last year, in 2024, global sea surface temperatures hit record highs (unsurprisingly), and we had the worst coral bleaching event ever. Over 84% of reefs globally were affected — and that includes some of the most pristine reefs in the world.

So, Ningaloo Reef off the coast of Western Australia, which is typically a little bit protected from these bleaching events, and the Rowley Shoals, about 300 kilometres west of Australia.
I had the immense privilege of going there — I think it was last year — and it was just incredible. They get about 100 scuba divers a year and it was pristine. And I’ve since seen photos of the bleaching event and... it is not so anymore.

In Aotearoa, marine heatwaves now cover most of our coastline for most of the year. So kelp forests are disappearing. Fish are disappearing — you know, they’re bailing out for cooler waters.
90% of seabirds are at risk of extinction. That’s because of habitat loss and of course, plastic. Because — you may have seen the article a couple of weeks ago — we’re on Lord Howe Island. If you poke a bird, it crunches.

Yep. It crunches. Because it’s full of plastic.

Then there are 75% of fisheries globally which are either overfished or unsustainable. We’re doing such a good job — we should just be so proud.

Now, kia ora, I’m Brianne and welcome back to Now That’s What I Call Green, and I know I’ve started this episode super pessimistically but actually, this is a really enjoyable, uplifting episode.
Yesterday was World Oceans Day — so obviously, that’s what we’re talking about — and I am joined by the incredible Melissa Cristina Márquez.

And I was a wee bit terrified to speak to Melissa. She’s amazing. She has a master’s degree in marine science, she’s currently working on her PhD, and she has a particular focus on sharks. She’s a science communicator who believes that science literacy should be a fundamental right.

And amen to that. She’s an author and she’s just all-round ocean obsessed. You may have seen her on Discovery Channel, just casually. You may have read one of her gorgeous books. You’ve probably seen her articles or her amazing videos on social media.
She’s also travelled all over the world studying marine predators. She speaks about diversity — or lack thereof — in science, and still somehow finds time to talk to classrooms of kids about why the ocean matters.

Kia ora, thank you so much for joining me, Melissa. I am delighted to have you on. I'm a wee bit nervous, you know... a wee bit — is it fangirly? It’s very childish to say that, but here we are.

Melissa Cristina Márquez
No, thanks for having me.

Brianne West
Let’s start at the beginning. Why did you fall in love with the ocean? Did you grow up by the ocean? Was it something particular that happened? Why did you start?

Melissa Cristina Márquez
Yeah, so if you can tell by the accent — definitely not Australian, even though I live in Australia. I was actually born in Puerto Rico, which is a small island in the Caribbean.
And so from there, I mean, it’s almost cliché — the island girl loves the ocean — but it’s very much the cliché I’ve kind of leaned into and that’s my life.
My first memories are of being on the beach, being with my parents — mostly my mum — kind of in the tide pools, just poking around, figuring out “what’s this?”, “what’s that?”
And that just kind of opened the door to a lot of curiosity.

I was one of those kids where I always had questions. I must’ve driven my parents insane with just all the questions I had about nature. And it got to the point where my parents were kind of like, “We don’t know the answers to what you are asking,” and so they’d take me to the library or they’d buy me books.

The Scholastic Book Fair was my jam growing up because I was like, yes, I get to buy all of the books that I want. And yeah, I just poured myself into books.

And when books weren’t enough, when I was a little bit older, I got into documentaries.

And it just started from playing at the beach and having one question that multiplied into another, another, another, another. And here I am today — still with many multiples of questions.

Brianne West
Yeah.
I often say I’m the kid that never grew out of asking “why”.
Yes. And I think that is so important, because there are so many things we do just because “that’s the way it’s done,” right? Nobody asks “why” enough.

That’s very cool. I can imagine... what a cool childhood.
Scampering around, finding weird and wonderful — and potentially venomous — things.

Melissa Cristina Márquez
Oh yeah. Oh yeah, definitely did.
I was both the kid that you should never tell “don’t touch that” — because I will touch that.

Brianne West
That’s how you learn.
Yeah, I’ve seen pictures and videos of you hanging out with sharks and I’m very jealous.
We’ll get to that.
So how did you go from that to a master’s — because you have a master’s in marine biology — and then on to documentaries with Discovery and writing kids’ books and everything else you’ve done?

Melissa Cristina Márquez
I did my bachelor’s in Florida in marine ecology and conservation and I actually got a stipend and award to be able to do my master’s over in New Zealand. I’d never been to New Zealand before. I don’t want to say it wasn’t on my radar — like I knew it was obviously there, even though a lot of maps decide just not to include New Zealand whatsoever — I knew it was there.
I knew a bit of it, mostly the sheep part. And also the fact that it was just stunning. But sheep, of course, sheep.

But I didn’t know the marine life there, and that really intrigued me. Again, as the kid who asked a lot of questions of “why”, I was like, ooh — what’s there?
And so I pivoted from just doing sharks to doing the relatives of sharks: chimaeras.

Which — if you think of a chimera and you’re a big Greek mythology fan — you’re thinking that weird mashup of animals with a lion and an eagle and a serpent all mashed together and you’ve got this weird...
Well, chimaeras are still weird, but they don’t look like that. They just look like weird fish.

They tend to be more like deep-sea animals and I was like, oh, I want to study the weird cousin of the shark. Sure, why not. Teach me a new animal.

So, I went across the world and I went from it being like 40 degrees Celsius in Florida to like 10 in Wellington — because it was winter.
It was summer in the northern hemisphere and winter in the southern hemisphere and I was like, oh, what have I done?

I absolutely loved it though. Did my master’s for a year and stuck around because I didn’t want to go home just yet — but also I really just loved New Zealand.

During that year, when I was doing a working holiday visa, I got the opportunity to do a TEDx talk.
And that talk was titled “Female Sharks and Shark Scientists: More Alike Than You Think” and I was talking about the misrepresentation of female shark scientists on Discovery Channel, but also of female sharks.
Because a lot of the time, you’ll see all these big brawny white dudes be like, “Ooh, look at that big guy, big boy,” and it’s very much a female shark.

So I kind of wanted to bring a little bit of humour to it, but also have this really real discussion of lack of diversity and inclusivity in the shark science world — when it comes to media.

Discovery Channel ended up seeing that and they were like, “Oh, we really like your message.”
“We’ve actually got a show coming up that we’re filming in your neighbourhood — in the Caribbean. Would you be interested in coming and being a part of it?”

And I said yes.
I did a lot of thinking, I did a lot of screaming and cursing because I was like, “Oh my god.”
Like, very much full circle. That’s how I was introduced to sharks — it was a great white shark breaching through one of their shows called Air Jaws.

So the fact that I got to be on that was really cool.

And even today — so what is that, like five, six, seven years after the fact of me first showing on Discovery Channel — I still get people who get to see those shows through the reruns and still reach out to me being like,
“You are one of the first shark scientists that I’ve seen that’s Latina,” or “that’s female,” “thank you so much.”
It means a lot to see this kind of representation. And also speaking Spanish.

So yeah, if you had asked little me — do you think you’re ever going to be on TV? — no. Not at all.

I mean, most people, I would venture to say, don’t really ever think they’re cut out for TV. But it’s just been a really cool niche to get into and it’s allowed me to do something I find really important, which is science communication.

So it’s taking all that jargony science that you hear a lot of shark scientists kind of spit out when it comes to their research, and my job is to be the bridge between the scientist and the general public.
I’m telling you what they’re doing, why it’s important, and why it specifically matters to you.

And yeah, using TV as a platform for science communication. Using books.
And again — that wasn’t something I ever thought I was going to do either. That was a complete — I don’t want to say mistake — but a happy accident.

I don’t know if you were on Twitter when A) it was Twitter and B) it was kind of in its heyday.

Brianne West
No, not really. I’ve never been a Twitterer. A tweet.

Melissa Cristina Márquez
Yeah. So science Twitter — in its heyday — was freaking awesome.
Because you got to just communicate with scientists all around the world.

We used to do a lot of — for example for Shark Week — we used to do a lot of live fact-checking. I remember sitting there with my laptop, watching the show and either I was praising it or I was making a lot of silly memes being like, “This is horrible. Oh my god.”

But through there — I don’t even remember what the prompt was or who sent it — but someone said, “If you could write a book, what would it be about?”
And I had kind of an idea in my head and I was like, oh, it would be about this. I still haven’t written it. I want to at some point — but I still haven’t written it.

And the person who is now my agent reached out to me and said, “Hey, I really liked your ideas for that specific story,” and then other stories that we’ve worked on and now have published together.

And yeah — again — another path I never thought I was going to be in, but I’ve always loved storytelling.
I’ve always loved writing books and narrating books.

So yeah, for me I feel like it’s a lot of hard work and passion meets a little bit of magia — a little bit of luck and magic.

Brianne West
Yeah, always a bit of luck and timing involved with everything, right? But at the end of the day, it’s because you’re very good at what you do, and that passion comes through.

Melissa Cristina Márquez
Exactly — it’s the hard work as well. That’s part of what gets people to where they are — plus that bit of luck as well, where you end up.

Brianne West
Yeah, and it’s not... People always seem to feel that when I say, “Oh, you know, I’ve been successful in business because of a lot of luck and timing,” people are like, “Oh no no, it’s because you worked hard.”
Those are not mutually exclusive. And you worked bloody hard. So that’s very cool.

You talk a lot — well, “talking a lot” makes it sound a little bit trivial — but a big part of your conversation online is about diversity in science, right?
And I imagine, particularly right now, that is slightly more fraught.

Why does it matter that science should be representative of the communities they’re trying to help — or they are studying?
Because I’ve never won this discussion with someone who believes that it should be a meritocracy and doesn’t understand the idea of unconscious bias.

And there’s no telling them.
How do you do it?

Melissa Cristina Márquez
To be honest, it’s really hard. Part of being a science communicator, I’ve realised, is that sometimes you can meet people where they’re at...
But sometimes they’re not going to budge. You can talk your heart out, provide all the stats, the emotional anecdotes, the storytelling — but they’re set in their ways.

I can respect that — but at the end of the day, that’s not my audience. That’s not my people.
I want people who are open-hearted and open-minded — open to having their opinions changed, to learning something new, or seeing something in a different light.

You kind of said it perfectly:
In order to be effective and actually benefit people, science needs to serve the people it’s trying to benefit.

We’re not all one colour. We’re not all one background. We’re not all one culture.
We are this melting pot of just beautiful diversity.

And for me, one of the things I really liken it to is nature.
There’s not just one kind of bird, one kind of flower, one kind of tree.
There is this kaleidoscope that all works together to create a beautiful, flourishing planet.

And that’s what you need in science — and the humanities as well.
You need science that focuses not just on broad-stroke, global conservation efforts — but stuff that specifically targets local areas, specific problems, and works with that community to come up with really specialised, local solutions.

Otherwise...
No wonder people think, “Oh, science is useless. It doesn’t help anyone.”

Because if you brushstroke everything, it might help 5% of the population.
The other 95% are going to feel shafted.

So in order to understand the diverse needs of a diverse community, you need diversity in science to have those voices come up to the table and be like,
“Look, you see it from this point of view... but have you actually thought about this?”

And then everybody else who’s not lived that or seen that goes, “Oh — no, we actually hadn’t accounted for that whatsoever.”
So the intention might be good — to help protect a community, to help that community thrive — but what’s the saying?
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

You might have good intentions — but if you’re not listening to the needs of a community, you’re not doing anyone any good.
You need representation.
You need members of that community at your decision-making table in order for it to benefit them.
Because otherwise... what’s the point?

Brianne West
I do a bit of — I’m on the board of WWF in New Zealand — and we do a lot to make sure we’re considering as much mātauranga Māori as possible within the work we do.
But it is, for someone who has not grown up with the idea of Te Ao Māori...

You know, it’s quite a different worldview in some respects — and it’s so much nicer —
But it does make you apply a totally different viewpoint to things.
And if you’re not aware that you’re missing that viewpoint, you’re missing a whole different vantage point.

You said it much more articulately than I did, but—

Melissa Cristina Márquez
Well, you don’t know what you don’t know.

Brianne West
No. You don’t. You’ve got no idea.
And the people who aren’t open-minded enough to go and look...

Melissa Cristina Márquez
Yeah. For me, one thing I’ve been harping on for a while — but especially recently — is the different knowledge bases and resources that exist out there.

Because obviously, you’ve got the Eurocentric Western science one.
That’s the one everyone says, “That’s science. That’s what we pay attention to. Nothing else.”
And it’s like... do you realise how much knowledge you’re not paying attention to if you don’t listen to Indigenous knowledge?

There is millennia — even more — of information and knowledge that has been passed down from community to community.
Ancestors have been there, watched and observed, and passed down that knowledge to others.
And they’ve done with that what they may, and then passed it on.

There’s so much information you’re missing because you’re not willing to acknowledge that that is actually science as well.
It may not look like your traditional Western science — but that’s the point.

And that’s why you need to start melding, especially now.
We hit this critical point a while ago, but I think especially now, alarm bells are ringing.

You need to meld all of the knowledge resource databases you have, in order to make effective conservation initiatives.
Because otherwise, you’re just going to be missing giant pieces of the puzzle.

My son has these giant pieces of a puzzle that he’s making — because he’s less than a year old — so they’re like the jumbo puzzles, right?
And I don’t know what he did with one of the pieces, but it’s just gone.

I think I was vacuuming earlier, and I’m looking for this piece because my OCD is just like, “Where is it? I need to finish the picture!”
But it’s such a good metaphor — because if you’re missing that piece, the puzzle’s incomplete.

It’s going to bug someone, and they’re going to talk about it a lot until someone finds the dang piece and integrates it into the rest of the puzzle.
But otherwise, you’re just missing pieces of the puzzle, and you’re never going to have a nice, pretty framed picture — or whatever it is it’s trying to show you — if you don’t have all of the pieces.

It’s silly trying to complete a puzzle without all of the pieces there.
And that’s what we’re trying to do, apparently.

I know a lot of people are advocating for that dang puzzle piece to be at the table with all the other pieces.

Brianne West
I’ve noticed — I’m back at uni doing my master’s, with the hope to eventually have a PhD... just because I want to selfishly be Dr West — but no.
And I love it so much more this time around.

Something I’ve noticed is that Indigenous voice is injected as much as possible by the university.
And I... I’m not quite sure, because obviously Indigenous science is not done in the same way that Western, Eurocentric science is done, right?
And the peer review process — which is not perfect, obviously. But I have no idea how that is going to integrate.
And it’s going to be really interesting to see what happens.

What have you seen change? If anything — please say something has got better.

Melissa Cristina Márquez
Yeah. I mean, I think the willingness to listen and work with Indigenous knowledge holders, elders, traditional owners, communities...
I think the willingness to listen to them, but also wanting to collaborate with them — I’ve definitely seen that increase in the last couple of years.
Because people are getting it. Especially here in Australia, where you’ve got the oldest culture in the world — they’re getting that they need to work with these communities in order to get anything meaningful done.

For part of my PhD work — which, my PhD journey was actually quite funny, because in the beginning it was just about the ecology of sharks, and COVID completely messed that up and derailed me —
and now I’m going a completely different path.

But the one chapter — even when it was just about the ecology of sharks — that I was really, really passionate about was the first chapter,
which was looking at shark perception in folklore around the world.

So I was looking at how sharks were portrayed in different storylines.
What were the overarching themes?
Were there similarities between different cultures around the world?
And what could it mean?

And is that something that conservationists could work with local communities to implement more effective conservation initiatives?

And what I found was really interesting — that a lot of cultures, regardless of oceans and continents between them — had a lot of the same storylines.

But when I was putting the paper — because it’s not 100% done yet — when I was putting it together and adding some new things, I submitted it for peer review once.
And one of the reviewers — I don’t know if you know the fabled reviewer scale: reviewer one is usually alright, reviewer two is horrible, reviewer three is up in the air —
well, reviewer two was just like:

“This isn’t actual science.”

Because it’s literally knowledge that people have of these animals.
Like, are sharks actually going to rain down from the heavens and kill sailors in a specific area?
No — it’s not Sharknado.

But it lends to the idea of — hey, there is some sort of oceanographic anomaly happening here.
There are a lot of deaths.
Why is that?

Oh, it turns out there’s a lot of freaking whirlpools in this area, and a lot of eddies, that are causing inexperienced sailors to die.
But they’re blaming it on the sharks. Because why not? It’s a 2D creature that looks demonic.

So it’s a different way of looking at the natural world.
And of course you have to do it with respect, with an open mind, and with a lot of reverence for the knowledge that exists in this oral traditional knowledge.

But I think it’s a step towards a more inclusive conservation path.

Because I think a lot of times — what is conservation in the grand scheme of things?
When we’re talking to people about conservation, about protecting animals, it’s a story.
It’s telling people about an animal, why you should protect it, how we’re interacting with it.

But as you’re telling all these facts and whatnot, you’re actually weaving a story.
That is what humanity does. We weave stories. We are storytellers.

This is just another story.
It might not look like your stories — where some people prefer non-fiction, some people prefer fiction, some prefer self-help books, some prefer manga —
it might not look like the stories you normally check out of a library,
but it’s just as valid and just as important.

Brianne West
I like that way of looking at it. People like different genres, if you like.

Melissa Cristina Márquez
Mm. Thank you. I just came up with that.

Brianne West
Nice.

You’re a science communicator, right? And again — more prevalent of late — but certainly in my opinion, a growing trend is misinformation, anti-science, blah blah blah.
“All scientists are evil,” which I find sort of hilarious, because I’m not sure who’s paying all these scientists, and I’ve yet to actually meet a rich scientist.

But here we are.

How do you tackle the constant misinformation in your sphere?
Is it simply a matter of digging in and being patient, or—

Melissa Cristina Márquez
I mean, a lot of times it’s calling it out.
I know people have different coping mechanisms. For me, a lot of times it’s calling it out.

A lot of times I have informational kind of infographics or content that exists around specific myths and misconceptions.
And so if something comes out I can be like:
“Look, this article says this” or “This is something people are saying — I’ve talked about this before in the past, my information hasn’t really changed — this is what’s actually happening.”

That’s my sort of go at it.
But especially when it can get quite bad — for example, the whole “oh the ocean can’t warm if there’s ice in the water” or “climate change doesn’t exist,” and all that other stuff...
There are some things where, again — not my people.

If you don’t want to engage in a conversation where you are willing to have your mind open — I’ve got other things to do.
I’ve got a pile of laundry.
I’ve got a dog to run around.
I’ve got a child.

If you’re not going to want to listen to me — that’s fine. That’s your prerogative. But then you’re not my audience.

It definitely gets tiresome sometimes.
There are family members where I am aware that they do not believe in climate change.
I love them, and I would rather have peace.

Because I can’t have a Thanksgiving where we all just explode into:
“No, climate change is real.”
“No, climate change is fake.”
“You’re just saying that because you get paid.”

My dad does my taxes. He knows how much money I actually make.
I don’t make millions. So he can tell anyone that in my family.

But yeah — I would love to know where some of these rhetorics start.
Like, “evil scientists” or “we get paid millions to talk about climate change,”
because I’m missing quite a few cheques that I would like to cash, thank you very much.

Brianne West
Yeah — do we get one every time we bust a myth online? Or, you know, how does that work?

Melissa Cristina Márquez
I would like to buy a house in Sydney and the market’s horrible,
but if we’re getting paid millions, that’ll help.
So, IRS — reach out to me. You know where I am.
If I can have my cheques, that’d be great.

Brianne West
I think that’s funny because — let’s be honest — the people who perpetuate that myth are much more likely to be paid by, I don’t know, Big Oil for lack of a better term, than the scientists are. But that’s fine.

Do you notice — I mean, I imagine that you will — women online, science communicators, women online, but particularly women of colour online — massive amounts of hate.
How do you deal with it?
Do you dispute facts and then leave them?
Do you block them?
Do you just not care?

I know you keep saying these aren’t your people and I absolutely think that’s the way to handle it.
But my concern, when we ignore these sorts of trolls online, is that that information is winning — because we ignore it.

What do you do?

Melissa Cristina Márquez
So on Fridays — I don’t know if you remember Follow Fridays?
That was a huge trend and it kind of disappeared into the ether.
And I was like, you know what — I’m bringing it back.

Because it’s 2025, and there’s so much other stuff — it’s ridiculous trying to stick out and stay relevant on social media.
And for my own sanity and mental health, I was like, “You know what? 2025 is going to be the year that I post what I want, when I want. I don’t care about trends or any of that other stuff.”

Some of them I might hop on. Others I’m going to be like, “Whatever.”
I don’t need to do a funny dance in order to tell you about climate change. That’s just not my thing.
Other people do it — great — not for me.

So beginning of the year, I was like, I want to bring Follow Fridays back.
And a lot of the people I showcase are women of colour. There are some men of colour in there too — but primarily women of colour.

And I remember very distinctly, one of them was a woman who is a marine scientist, and the photo I chose for her was one of her in a swimsuit — because she’s a marine biologist.
But also, the reason I chose it was because she just looked really happy.
She was exuding this sunshine aura that made you want to talk to her, want to know more about what she’s doing.
And I was like, “That’s perfect. That’s her to a T. That’s her profile to a T. That is what I want to showcase.”

And this one guy — because it’s always a freaking guy — was like, “Oh, she looks really hot.”

And I was like, “I have told you all about her accomplishments, and the only thing you can say is that she’s good-looking?”

I’m like, “She’s beautiful, but that’s not the point of this.”
And he’s like, “Oh.”

I was like, “The thing you decided to focus on was sexualising her. That’s not okay. That’s not what this page is about. Keep your comments to yourself, or just don’t comment.”

Those — I will 100% go out swinging.
Because I’m not here for it.
I’m so tired of us being sexualised because we are wearing literally our uniform — which is a swimsuit.
I’m not going to wear a suit in the middle of the ocean.
I would drown under how heavy everything is.

So those things I definitely speak up about.

Then there’s some where it’s just absolute vile hate — specifically if it’s targeted to me.
I have a weird duality in that I’m Latina — so I’m a person of colour — but I’m white-passing.
So I can get away with standing up for people who are not white-passing, while also receiving a lot of the hate that women of colour get.

So I use this kind of duality to defend those who might get in trouble — or where it might be dangerous for them to be able to defend themselves.

When I get comments like that — that are a bit more dangerous, especially the ones with a lot of antisemitism, misogyny, just hatred — a lot of times I’ll just block it.
Because I’m like, you literally just scrolled through a photo, saw it, decided to spew your hate, and moved on.
There’s not going to be a productive dialogue here.

But a lot of times it is — yeah, me being Latina, I’m spicy.
I’ll take off my hoops and take you on — sure, let’s go for a scrap.

I’ve also been in Australia long enough that I’ve kind of gotten their “no worries mate” attitude.
And I’ve got a six-foot-six husband who’ll back me up.

So I’m tiny and little — I’m very scrappy.
I’m kind of like a chihuahua that way.
Yeah — let’s go.

I will block you if I think you’re annoying and everything else — but more often than not I will call you out on your BS.
That’s what needs to happen — people calling it out.

And I think that specifically needs to happen from allies.
And I don’t see it happening enough from allies.

I think it’s still dangerous — but it’s less dangerous for a white person to stand up for a person of colour.
And that’s what being a good ally is: taking those shots for your colleagues, for your friends, for your family members who can’t take them —
because it is literally dangerous for them to speak out.

Brianne West
And yes — people don’t do it because it’s scary.
But it’s a damn sight scarier for women of colour.

Melissa Cristina Márquez
Oh yeah. On the receiving end? Definitely.

Brianne West
You have to use your privilege. You have to.
And the best way to do it — to gain that courage and that bravery — is just to start doing.

That’s it.

Now — talking about fights, sort of — I’m going to talk about sharks now.
Because yesterday was World Oceans Day.

This is a very subtle movement into sharks, isn’t it?
I’m not an interviewer on a professional level.

What’s your favourite thing about sharks?
That’s a stupid question — but it leads into a nice broad discussion.

Melissa Cristina Márquez
For me — I’ve always said before, usually one of the things when people ask me, “What got you interested in sharks?” — I always said it’s because they’re these misunderstood predators.
100% true. The misunderstood aspect is something that fascinates me.

But really, it’s the diversity that intrigues me and draws me in.

Because you can say “shark” and a lot of people, when they think about it, they instantly think of like: great white, tiger shark, bull shark, hammerhead — the sharks that you normally see.

There are over 500 different species.
There’s so much diversity.

I mean, they’re as big as buses.
They can also fit in your hands — like, in your pocket.

And I think that’s such a cool evolutionary adaptation — that this species was like, “You know what? In order for me to survive into the future, I’m just going to make as many different versions of me as possible.”

And, you know — there are some...
I’m going to say it — I probably shouldn’t, because people are going to be like, “No, Melissa, you study them. You should love them all equally. You can’t have a favourite child.”

But there are some ugly sharks.
Goblin shark? Not winning any beauty awards. Not at all. Not cute.
Frilled shark? Ehh... kind of looks like something out of a nightmare.

They’re cute — but also, the eyes anytime I’ve seen videos of them... they just look like they’ve seen some stuff.
They look alien. Because they are kind of alien-looking.

And then you have, on the complete other end of the spectrum — epaulette sharks. Freakin’ adorable.
Wonderful. Little, small, spotted things you see cruising around tidal pools being like, “Look at me! I can walk!”

Caribbean roughsharks? They look like a burnt wonton.
Like, who doesn’t love a cute-looking burnt wonton thing?

There’s just so much diversity and I’m over here like, “What?! You all look so different — but you’re technically all sharks.”

Whereas — there are different species of rhinos, but they all kind of look the same.
They all look like rhinos.

Whereas if I showed you different species of sharks, you might go, “Oh well, that one kind of looks like a shark... but those ones? Weird fish.”
And I’m like — surprise! They’re sharks.

So yeah, the diversity is probably the thing I love the most about them.

Brianne West
Because like... how freakin’ cool is that?

And now I’m going to really ruin your day and ask you: what is your favourite child?
I know, I know — you’re allowed one.

Melissa Cristina Márquez
See, it’s tough.
I really, really love tiger sharks.

Brianne West
Ah! Good choice.

Melissa Cristina Márquez
Because I’ve had the most kind of interaction with them.
But they’re also just very charismatic. Like, they don’t know personal space when you’re diving with them.

They’re very curious — which I, for one, 100% identify with.

But they’re also known as the trash cans of the sea because they kind of eat anything and everything.
In their stomachs, we’ve found: suits of armour, unexploded TNT—

Brianne West
A whole suit of armour?!

Melissa Cristina Márquez
Like parts of it!
But still — any part of a suit of armour in a shark’s stomach and you’re just like... what are you— okay.

Brianne West
Wow.

Melissa Cristina Márquez
TNT!
Hold on — you focused on the suit of armour and not the explosive in the shark’s stomach?

Brianne West
I sort of feel like it’s clearer that you’d find bits of bomb and all sorts of God-knows-what in the ocean...
But a suit of armour in the sea is quite weird.

Melissa Cristina Márquez
Well... porcupine!
We’ve found a porcupine in a tiger shark’s stomach before.
And you’re like — where are the porcupines coming from? Okay?

Like, they just eat weird things.
And I’m like — you know what, I very much identify with that.
Because when my time of the month comes, I eat everything and anything.
And I’m like — you know, I think that’s kind of what the tiger sharks are alluding to.
They’re just like, “You know what? I just need a snacky-snack. This is here. Might not be nutritious, but this is what I’m craving.”

Brianne West
I admire their open-mindedness. Their ability to try things. Right?

Melissa Cristina Márquez
Exactly.

Brianne West
I’m not sure I’d give... a porcupine a go.
It just seems a bit prickly.
I like a little bit of an edge and spice to my food — not pain.

Also — have you seen a porcupine eating watermelon?

Melissa Cristina Márquez
No!

Brianne West
I couldn’t eat mine just because of the sheer cuteness.
Their little fat noses!

Melissa Cristina Márquez
Oh well, now I’m going to have to find that on YouTube.

Brianne West
Yeah, you’re going to go TikTok it or whatever.
I get all my information from TikTok.

Brianne West
The ocean world isn’t particularly optimistic. You know, there’s an awful lot of really horrible shit going on at the moment.
How do you bridge the discussion between “This is terrible, and this is not going well, and we really need to look after this…”
—but we can still keep hopeful?

And how do you stay hopeful personally?

Melissa Cristina Márquez
For me, I think there is definitely a fatigue when it comes to doom and gloom news.
You know, I don’t know about you, but I’ve had to turn off all of my news notifications because all I see is just bad news.
And it gets to you. Especially for us, over here on this side of the world — we wake up to a barrage of what the rest of the world has done while we’re sleeping.
And I’m like, “I don’t need to start my day like that.”

So a lot of times, it’s me trying to provide actionable tips or activities that people can do — that help them locally, or regionally, or state-wide, or country-wide — to feel like they’re doing something.

And what I mean by that is:
Usually months kind of have themes — like May was Mental Health Month, June is obviously Oceans Month, July is going to be Plastic-Free July.

The last couple of months, on the first of the month, I usually post either like 50 to 100 ideas — just a list of things people can pick from and say,
“Oh wait a minute, I can do that. I can do that.”

And it’s actionable stuff.

So, for this month — for ocean stuff — I do a really small version for kids, like “Five Things Kids Can Do to Help,”
and then more things that adults can do.

Like this month, I posted:
“50 impactful and achievable ways adults can help the ocean this month.”

Some examples:

Carry a reusable water bottle and coffee cup. (Lots of people have reusable water cups — but it keeps one less bottle out of the ocean.)

Compost food scraps to reduce methane emissions and runoff.

Include ocean protection in your will or estate planning by leaving a legacy gift to a marine conservation charity.

Wash your car at car washes that treat wastewater — not at home.

So it’s things you’re already kind of doing — and you don’t have to go too much out of your way to have an impact.

And same with little kids.
I think for May, for Mental Health Awareness Month, I did:
“Five Ways Kids Can Be Mindful in Nature.”
Things like:

Go on a walk in nature and see what you can hear.

See what you can smell.

See what you can touch — and leave.

Take five minutes during your walk and pick up trash — with the help of an adult.

So it’s giving people actionable items that — in their own way — they can kind of help.

For us adults, it’s doing that — but also being reminded of the responsibility we carry to make sure we elect people who actually give a shit about the environment and will do something about it.
That’s something I really harp on.

You can do all this — but at the end of the day, you could be doing everything right, and whoever you vote for — if they’re not paying attention to the environment — they’re negating everything you’re doing.

I’ll tell people what the threats are.
I don’t go too much into it outside of definitions and how that impacts others.
I don’t harp on just that — because I feel like after a while, people just tune out.

I would rather give you... I don’t want to say the solutions — because it’s not really a solution — but it’s an action that allows you to help us.
And “us” being: conservationists, scientists, policymakers, and whatnot — to make a bigger impact to help nature.

I think that’s a lot more impactful — and a better way of communicating conservation to people — than just bombarding them with depression and facts all the time.

And that’s kind of what I try to do with my own life as well.
I very much was that person who thought:
“I need to read every report. I need to be on top of the news. I need to know everything that’s happening.”

But it just got to be too much — because there is a lot of doom and gloom. There is a lot of bad news out there.

And I personally am trying to focus more on the people that I know are doing really good.
Because I’m like: “Look, there is a lot going on. But I know we’ve got some of the best people out there working on solutions to help.”
And maybe that’s me being naively optimistic — but I’d like to think that humanity as a whole, in our hearts of hearts, is good, and wants to protect our planet.

Obviously, there is a very loud minority right now saying something different — but at the end of the day, we’ve only got one planet.
And I think people are going to realise — whatever side of the aisle you’re on — we’ve only got one planet, so we’ve got to take care of it.
Because she’s been taking care of us for a really long time. It’s about time we repaid the favour.

Brianne West
Totally. We’re put here as kaitiaki, right? If you want to believe in a life purpose — kaitiaki, guardians — I think that’s the nicest way of looking at it.

Melissa Cristina Márquez
That’s it.

Brianne West
And the idea of actions is absolutely spot on — because people just get anxious from all the news.
Yeah, I try and stay away from it a little bit too.
But I don’t want to be alarmed constantly — because I’ve felt it way worse this year, for whatever reason.

Melissa Cristina Márquez
It’s not good for your nervous system.
But also — if you read so much depressing news, you’re going to think,
“Well, there’s nothing I can do.”

To me, it turns people off from actually doing anything.
Because they’re like, “The problem’s too big. I can’t do anything.”

Brianne West
Totally, yep.
Whether it is composting — which is surprisingly effective, actually, if we all did it —
Whatever it is, they snowball.

They snowball from one action into another, right?
So one day you’re composting, the next day you’re... I don’t know... protesting outside Parliament for something.

It’s probably a few steps in between — but they make a difference.

And the number one biggest thing you can do about it is: talk about it.
People feel like they’re the only ones who care.
But they’re most certainly not.
It is a loud minority.

Every action has an effect — no matter how small.
It’s that ripple effect.
Yeah.

And it’s kind of a combination of pointing out: individual actions make a difference —
but that doesn’t mean it’s your fault.
And that is a line to tread — but you do it so beautifully.

On the topic of hope — is there anything you’ve seen out there? Projects or stories you’ve heard or seen that are showing amazing regeneration, or that are just really inspiring?

There’s all sorts of amazing stuff going on out there, but we don’t see it — particularly in the mainstream media.
Do you have a favourite, or one that’s really impactful?

Melissa Cristina Márquez
I don’t per se have a favourite, because I’ve seen so many new women-led, Indigenous-led conservation initiatives that are cropping up...
Actually, maybe they’re not cropping up — maybe they’ve been around for a while and I’m just hearing about them for the first time.
They’re just now on my radar.

But there are so many of them that are existing now — and that just makes me really happy.
Because it’s leaning into that thing I was talking about: having everybody at the table.
I feel like a lot of people have gone,
“You know what? You don’t want to invite me to your table? Fine. I’ll make my own table. I’ll bring my own chairs. And here we go — I’ll get it done.”

So yeah — I don’t have a single favourite.
But I think my favourite thing is the trend I’m seeing of more diverse voices, more diverse perspectives, leading conservation initiatives.
And them not just being new — but them being around for a while.

And it seems like they have some pretty good results so far.
Some of them are in the preliminary stages,
but even just the fact that they exist gives me a lot of hope for what the future will hold.

Brianne West
Yeah, I really like that.
Just the fact that they exist — because that goes to show how many people are actually out there, trying to do the right thing.
I like that.

If you could take anybody in the world diving — to show them what’s going on — who would it be?
And where would you take them, actually?

Because I’m sort of also trying to find out what your favourite dive spot is.

Melissa Cristina Márquez
I feel like my go-to perfect dive buddy would’ve been David Attenborough.

One — I don’t know if he still dives at his very old age.
But also, I feel like he’d be teaching me more than I’d be teaching him.

So that’s a sneaky “please tell me everything you know, David Attenborough.”

But for a real answer — I think I’d take my son.
And he’s young, so obviously we’d have to wait until he can actually, you know, breathe underwater — and swim.

He needs to learn how to swim first — he doesn’t even know how to do that just yet.

But I would really, really love to take my son to the coral reefs off of Puerto Rico.
Because they’re my origin story.

I’ve seen them go from being quite vibrant to just absolute shells of what they used to be.
And I can show him pictures, I can tell him my story, I can tell him what I used to see — and why we’re not seeing it anymore.

And I would hope that it sparks just a little bit of curiosity in him — like it did in me — about what’s there, and wanting to protect it a little more.

Melissa Cristina Márquez
I’ve actually been talking a lot recently about the importance of ocean education — and ocean stewardship — or just nature stewardship — from a very young age.
Having nature protection and conservation in mind from early childhood.

Because that is when they are the most open and the most curious about nature.

I mean, ever since he was a little boy — littler, I guess — my son’s been fascinated just staring at the trees, watching the leaves move, watching the sunlight trickle through.
And it just goes to show you — we have this innate connection to nature that we just need to keep nurturing.

And yeah — I think for me, it’ll be really impactful to almost, in a way, pass on the baton.

And this isn’t me saying, “He’s going to be a conservationist when he grows up.”
You know, I don’t put that kind of pressure on — “Oh, I want my kid to do this,” or “I want my kid to do that.”

The one thing I do hope he is though — is kind.
Kind to himself. Kind to other people. And kind to nature.

Yeah.
I’d hope that would pass on — because I feel like passing on a legacy of kindness and mindfulness of nature...
That’s a good legacy to have.

Brianne West
I like that.
It’s sad that your reefs have visibly diminished in your lifetime.
I can’t imagine what it’s like for someone like David Attenborough — to have seen what’s being lost, at a rate of knots.
It’s hideous.

Melissa Cristina Márquez
You know those questions like, “Who would you want to trade lives with?” or “Who would you want to have lunch with?”
Always him.
Because I would love to have seen nature through his eyes when he was quite young and starting out — and just seeing the wilderness of it all.

And I guess in a way, almost then stepping back into today — and just seeing how much we’ve lost.
Because I haven’t seen his new documentary Oceans just yet — I haven’t had the chance —
but I’ve heard that it’s a lot of self-reflection. A lot about the loss that he’s seen in his lifetime.

And I can imagine how — A) that could be quite depressing — but B) it can make you very passionate about wanting to protect what is left.

Brianne West
Yeah. I haven’t seen it yet either.
I’m a little nervous.
I hear it’s uplifting at the end — but really confronting in the middle.

But in saying that, I imagine both you and I aren’t going to find it that confronting — because it’s not going to be new news, right?
And I’m delighted to see how much oomph it’s got.
You know — people are suddenly finding out that 80% of Aotearoa’s fish comes from bottom trawling — which is disgraceful, but here we are.

My last question for you — which is my last question for everybody:
If you were supreme global overlord all of a sudden, and you had the power to do pretty much anything (within the realms of physics) —
what would be the very first thing you’d do to try and make the world a better place?

Melissa Cristina Márquez
I would make it mandatory — from a really young age — to interact with nature.
And to have that kind of stewardship built in.

Because I think a lot of the time, in how these newer generations are growing up — we’re quite removed from nature.
So it’s hard to understand your place, or figure out where you belong — or why what’s happening out there matters to you, specifically.

So I think having some sort of curriculum — or programme — that people go through where they learn about their local area:
What kind of plants are there? What kind of fauna is there?
Talk to Indigenous elders and communities about how they’ve seen the area change.
What knowledge they might be willing to share about their lifestyle, and how they’ve seen the world change in their time.

I think it would be really beneficial.

Because I think if we’re going to coexist with nature again — how we used to — we need to be a part of nature again, instead of apart from it.
Which is how we’ve been living for... God knows how long.

You know — for me, I’m quite lucky in that New South Wales is very green.
I love that about New South Wales.
I can go to parks and trees and just sit there, take my shoes off and feel the earth beneath my toes.
But a lot of people don’t get that opportunity.

And I think you need that.
You need to — as the internet now says — “touch grass” in order to get back to your roots.
To realise your part, and your role to play, on planet Earth.

Brianne West
Totally.
And I don’t know how — but most adults, they don’t question why. They don’t ask.
They’re not curious about what the world is.

And I think we need to nurture that a little bit.
And I think you’re right — having access to nature, however you’d create that, would perhaps engender a little bit more curiosity and passion about it.

Actually, I lied — I do have one more question for you.

Next time I’m in Sydney, will you take me diving?

Melissa Cristina Márquez
Yeah! Next time you’re in Sydney.

Brianne West
Excellent.
Where are we going to go?
Where’s your favourite Sydney diving spot?

Melissa Cristina Márquez
Oh my God — I can’t for the life of me remember it right now...

Brianne West
Just watch — I’m going to remember as soon as we finish.
But there’s a nice little cove area where there are lots of wobbegong sharks.

Melissa Cristina Márquez
Oh they’re so adorable. I know! It’s so hilarious.
They look so grumpy — I love them.

Brianne West
Okay — perfect. Deal.

Well, thank you. That was amazing.
Fascinating. Eye-opening.

I hope it was really entertaining for everyone else to listen to.

But before we wrap — I want to go back to this idea of hope, right?
Because there’s lots of bad stuff happening — but as Melissa talked about, there are solutions happening.
And she’s seen it.

So let’s have a chat about some of the things that are working...

Now, I started out this episode talking about how badly coral reefs are doing. They support a quarter of all marine life — that’s a massive amount, considering they only cover about 1% of the ocean floor. And we’ve already lost about 50% of them.

But — scientists are regrowing coral.
You may have seen Coral Gardeners — they are literally farming baby coral fragments in nurseries on underwater scaffolding, and then transplanting them back onto damaged reefs.
It’s amazing. And it’s working.

They’re present in places like the Great Barrier Reef, parts of Indonesia, Fiji, Bali, the Caribbean.
And one technique in particular actually grows coral 40 times faster than it would naturally — because coral grows very slowly.

Unfortunately, this method of coral gardening is expensive, it’s very slow — and ultimately, it won’t matter if the oceans keep getting hotter.
But — it’s still pretty cool.

You may have heard of 30 by 30 — the idea of roping off 30% of the ocean and land and leaving it alone.
This is usually done through things called marine protected areas, or MPAs — they’re like national parks, but wet.

Fully protected MPAs have six times more fish and significantly more biodiversity than areas where we’re still fishing.
And they don’t stop people from fishing or deriving an income from the sea — which, of course, must continue for many people.

They actually help — because when you leave fish alone in one spot, they don’t just stay there.
They don’t see lines in the ocean. They spill over into nearby waters where fishing is allowed, helping rebuild those populations and improve biodiversity.

In Aotearoa, we’ve already got some MPAs in place — and they’re a standard success.
But they are rare.

Right now, just 0.4% of our coastal waters are fully protected — which is ridiculous.
And I could say lots of things about this government and its lack of action — but I’m going to tone that down.

There are other countries doing infinitely better than we are.
Canada, Chile, Japan — they’re going about it in different ways, and I’ve actually written an article about that which you can read over on our Substack.

In Aotearoa, we’ve lost about 70% of our seagrass beds.
Seagrass stores carbon 35 times faster than tropical forests.
Kelp grows half a metre a day and provides food, oxygen, and storm protection.

These things are important — and yet we don’t appreciate them.
But — projects are underway to replant them.

Some by hand, by very committed divers.
Some using seed pods.

And we’re already seeing seagrass meadows and kelp forests return.
Early signs show that within months, not years, there are massive increases in fish and invertebrates.

Of course, we can’t talk about ocean health without talking about plastic.

Right now, there are about 170 trillion pieces of it floating around the ocean — and that’s a conservative estimate.

You’ve got organisations like The Ocean Cleanup, and a few other groups, working on it —
giant booms across river mouths, big boats sucking plastic out of the environment.

There are even robotic jellyfish — which finally makes jellyfish useful — and they’re pulling out hundreds of tonnes of macroplastic.

We haven’t yet figured out a way to get microplastics.
And to be honest, it all seems kind of pointless until we stop adding it back in.

But — some of those booms across river mouths are making a real difference at stopping plastic before it reaches the ocean.
We just need to do a lot more work upstream.

And finally — let’s talk about the people doing the work.
Indigenous communities have been protecting oceans for generations.

Rāhui — traditional no-take zones — ocean management grounded in respect and science: these things work.
And they’re often better than Western conservation efforts.

Look at places like Moananui-ā-Kiwa — where Pacific Island nations are reviving traditional marine protection to rebuild fish stocks.
In Hawai‘i, community-led efforts have restored reef health and increased local catch in just a couple of years.
In Aotearoa, iwi place rāhui after mass die-offs or depletion events — and ecosystems recover. They do.

These aren’t just some kind of cultural thing — as some people dismiss them.
They are evidence-based, low-cost, and they have community buy-in — which makes them more likely to stick.

Western systems are slowly — very slowly — catching up to what Indigenous people have believed for centuries:

Respect the moana, and it will provide.

So — the state of the ocean isn’t great.
But it’s not hopeless.
It is far from it.

The ocean has shown us, time and again, its amazing capacity to heal — and infinitely faster than land can.
And as Melissa pointed out, stories matter.

Talking about it. Telling stories. Spreading the word.
It all makes a huge difference.

We just have to actually do it — and stop buggering around waiting for politicians to notice the urgency.
I’ve really got quite cynical about governments these last few weeks — even more than before.
And it wasn’t great before.

They just never cease to disappoint — and totally fuck up simple things.

Anyway — definitely another episode.

Don’t forget, this week’s Microgreen episode will be out in a couple of days.
Melissa will be back, chatting with me about the ocean’s strangest creatures — because it’s pretty creepy down there.

Mā te wā. See you next time.

And there you go — I hope you learned something, and realised that being green isn’t about everything in your pantry matching those silly glass jars — or living in a commune.
(If that’s your jam — fabulous.)
But sustainability, at its heart, is just using what you need.

If you enjoyed this episode, please don’t keep it to yourself.
And feel free to drop me a rating and hit the subscribe button.

Kia ora — and I’ll see you next week.