Animals you hate that are actually awesome - with Bethany Brookshire (Part 2)

Welcome back to Part 2 of a fascinating kōrero with science journalist and author Bethany Brookshire. This one gets a smidge more controversial...

We talk about the animals we hate because they’re successful (looking at you, pigeons), the cultural weirdness of how we define pets vs pests, and how control - or our lack of it - shapes our relationship with the natural world.

Plus, there's a story involving Burmese pythons and a pair of trousers (you’ve been warned) and yes, we talk about cats in Aotearoa.

Transcript

This time we're delving into something a little bit more controversial, starting with cats in Aotearoa. So let's get on with it.

Brianne

Rats are clever, we know that. Well, I think it's commonly known. Mice?

Bethany

Oh yeah, rats are incredibly clever. So yes and no. Define clever.

Brianne

Ooh, okay. Well, I didn't even have to talk to someone who's done philosophy.

Bethany

Because like, you know, mice are very good at being mice.

Brianne

Yeah. Okay.

Bethany

Right? So by that definition, they are extremely clever. In the same way that we're very good at being humans. Are mice good at using tools? Meh.

Brianne

So it's tool making, it's problem solving, those sorts of things, isn't it? That we use to measure intelligence.

Bethany

Yeah, and I don't know that that's necessarily a correct measure. I mean, intelligence is a human concept. But we do know, so domesticated mice, Mus musculus domesticus, is the house mouse.

And these are the mice that live in your house. They actually are better at problem solving than mice that live in the country. So like a city mouse solves problems better than a country mouse. And different species of mice that have started living with humans actually solve problems better the longer they've lived with humans.

So they've learned to live well with us. For example, they can take the lid off a Petri dish to get to a treat. They can climb through the window of a Lego house. They do little tasks like that and they get better at it. And it's not necessarily that they're getting smarter – they're just adapting to living with us and becoming better at living with us. And that's what I love about animals that are pests, because these animals have learned to live with us. They've learned to live very close to us. And in so many cases, we just hate it.

Brianne

They're so successful and we're so mad. I remember sitting on the floor a couple of years ago in a flat and my dog was sitting next to me and we were watching – this is going to make me sound like I never vacuum the floor – which, anyway, I live with a dog. There was no food on the floor, right? But we were sitting in the kitchen, watching a couple of mice run around. It was adorable. The way they interacted with one another was just cute. And I don't understand this depth of hatred, but it is interesting because I've never thought about the associations we have with them, which is exactly your point.

And we should examine those sorts of things. It's probably a stupid question, but what is the most unfairly maligned animal?

Bethany

I mean, I would say they're all pretty unfairly maligned, but my favourite, I would say, as an example, is pigeons.

Brianne

Oh, the pigeon, the abandonment thing?

Bethany

Yeah. I love that. Well, and by love, I mean, I don't enjoy it – you know what I mean, intellectually. So yeah, it's interesting because people see pigeons – especially in the US and in Europe – people really dislike pigeons. They're gross, they carry disease, they're dirty, they eat rubbish.

What's really fascinating is you can actually see the decline of the pigeon in the human mind in New York City over about a hundred-year period. Colin Jerolmack, he's a professor at NYU, did his dissertation on this, tracking mentions of pigeons in The New York Times.

When you start in the 1860s and 1870s, they're described as beautiful and innocent. People who kill pigeons are monsters. Pigeons are beautiful and innocent. By the 1970s, the director of parks is calling them "rats with wings" and saying you shouldn't feed them.

What I find fascinating is this shift happened because we lost our use for the pigeon. We hate the pigeon because we can't use it anymore.

I like to think of pigeons as the outdated iPhone of the animal world, because we domesticated them about six to eight thousand years ago for a lot of things, right? They provided delicious meat.

If you've never had squab, you should – it's good. They were wonderful messengers. Because they live in cliffs, they go out, they feed themselves, and they come home. Luckily for us, buildings look like cliffs. So you put your pigeon in a building and the pigeon is like, "Oh, this is home now. I go out, I feed myself, I come home." This meant you could send them on messenger trips for very long distances. Pigeons are incredible endurance flyers.

The founder of Reuters actually made his fortune flying hot stock tips from Antwerp to Bruges – and he beat the train by two hours. It might've been Antwerp to Brussels, but still. Why is there not a Reuters pigeon foundation?

We also used them for fertiliser.

Brianne

Honestly, I thought you meant mulch them up, just for a horrifying second. That was where my brain went.

Bethany

No, it's the poo. It's the poo. There are pigeon coops dating from ancient Persia – beautiful bell-shaped structures where the poo falls to the bottom and you scoop it out to use as fertiliser or for saltpetre. Very important for artillery.

Brianne

Yes, fascinating story that.

Bethany

We had these wonderful uses for pigeons until we didn't. Until we could make our own chemical fertiliser, until we had the telegraph, until we had chicken and large-scale chicken production. Urban people used to keep pigeon colonies on their roofs as a source of protein.

Brianne

Did they used to be bigger?

Bethany

No, same size. But you know, we eat quail, don't we?

Brianne

They're small. I've got loads of quail running around and I'm thinking, why would you bother?

Bethany

But the rise of modern butchering and mass chicken mechanisation made it cheaper. Over time, people bought chicken, kept fewer pigeons, and pigeons became an inconvenience. Then they became dirty. You can let a pigeon go, stop keeping it on your roof – but pigeons go out, feed themselves, and come home. Where's home? Cities are home. And now we hate them for the very thing we loved them for. I find that so tragic, because they're lovely birds.

Have you ever looked closely at a pigeon?

Brianne

There's a couple that live here. They don't have anything to do with me. They live on the top of a tall tree. I see them flying around and we largely ignore each other.

Bethany

People used to breed fancy ones. Did you know Darwin was a huge pigeon guy?

Brianne

I did not.

Bethany

There's a large section of On the Origin of Species devoted to his pigeon-keeping. They're a great example of selection and domestication. You can select pigeons for wild traits. Some have big feather ruffs, some have feathers between their toes, some tumble mid-air. They're called almond tumblers.

Darwin submitted his manuscript with this big pigeon section. His editor came back and said, "Yeah, so this whole natural selection thing, I don’t know. Have you considered just doing a book on pigeons?" Because everyone was really into pigeons. Thankfully, Darwin ignored him.

Brianne

It wasn't a popular theory at one point – and still isn't for some groups.

Bethany

Nikola Tesla fell in love with a pigeon.

Brianne

An eccentric fellow.

Bethany

He used to say, "I love that pigeon as a man loves a woman."

Brianne

Okay. This is fascinating. I had no idea we'd be talking so much about pigeons. I love pigeons. I'm going to do so much Googling after this. I've only just realised I've been talking your ear off for about an hour, but I could keep going for another two.

We have kererū, our native wood pigeon, which weigh about 1.5 to 1.8 kg. They're big, beautiful birds and everyone here reveres them. I've heard "rats on wings" a million times, and I've had firm arguments with people saying pigeons should be eradicated. It's your fault they're here in the first place – well, not your fault, but you know what I mean.

Bethany

For a long time, there was no real difference between a pigeon and a dove. People didn’t distinguish them. The Columbiformes order is vast. In the Epic of Gilgamesh, which has a flood myth like the Bible, he uses a pigeon, not a dove. The original translation of Noah’s bird was pigeon, not dove. When Jesus was born, his parents sacrificed pigeons at the temple.

Brianne

Interesting. How we change things.

Bethany

Exactly. I was in Prague recently and met this guy making a living with fancy pigeons. He'd pose them on you, take a photo, then charge you. Classic. I said, "These are beautiful pigeons," and he said, "No, they are doves."

Bethany

He was very angry. And I was like, no, those are fancy pigeons. That's literally the designation. They are fancy.

Bethany

He was like, "They are doves."

Bethany

And he was looking around at the other tourists, like, "Don't you dare call them pigeons. Not here, I’ve got to make money."

Brianne

Okay, well, that shows you the power of a name versus the reality of the animal, if that makes sense. You talk about pets and how they become pets versus pests, right? The difference of one letter. How did we determine pets? Was it simply animals that were useful and then became less useful, but for some reason we kept them? Versus pigeons, which we abandoned, but dogs we kept? Or cats – actually, we don't use them as mousers as often. Is that how they translate into the pet world?

Bethany

You know, I think in some cases that's true. There are people who still keep pet pigeons. There are people who still race pigeons.

And when you think about pigeons, for example, there are also people who have really conflicted feelings about dogs, especially stray ones. In the global north, in first-world countries, we don't have packs of stray dogs. You see a stray dog and you immediately think, "That is someone's pet and it’s homeless."

Bethany

You see a stray cat and you think, "That's a homeless pet."

Brianne

Yeah.

Bethany

You don’t think it's a pest. But in other countries, stray dogs are a big public health threat.

Brianne

And they're very scary.

Bethany

They can be very scary. They eat rubbish and they spread rabies. Feral cats can also be a big threat. So I think it's fascinating how the distinction between pet and pest is largely one of culture and place.

In many places that have feral dogs – packs of feral dogs – people also have pet dogs. The distinction is about where the animal is and what you think its place is. And that's funny to me, because who determines what an animal's place is? Who determines where an animal belongs? We do.

We decide whether an animal belongs near us or not. Sometimes it's because the animal is useful. Sometimes it's just because we like it. A lot of people feed backyard birds just because they like them. They're pretty.

Brianne

So it's fascinating to realise how much of this is cultural choice. And this is the argument that vegans – but not exclusively vegans – make about why we eat some animals and cuddle others, right? It’s just what we decide they are. There’s no inherent reason for it beyond that.

I have pet cows and people ask, "Why don't you eat them?"

Bethany

Yeah, I know people who have pet chickens and still eat chicken – but they wouldn't eat their pet chickens.

Brianne

Yes. Peculiar, isn't it? I don’t eat meat – I always hate saying that because people think I’m going to judge them. But I have people visit my lifestyle block – I’ve got Highland cattle, chickens, and other animals running around – and they ask, "Do you eat them?"

That’s so peculiar to me because it would be like eating a pet. But animals on a farm are viewed differently. I suppose I’d view them differently if they weren’t mine, even though I’m not the one who… yeah. Ethics, right?

Bethany

And I think some of this is related to our relationship with death in the modern world.

A hundred years ago – say 1925, or even 1900 – you’d be hard pressed to find an adult who hadn’t seen something killed. A chicken, a pig, a cow, even a dog. You’d be hard pressed to find an adult who hadn’t killed something – hunting or a domestic animal. It was something you learned to do.

And you would eat those things. Of course you would. Why wouldn’t you?

It’s only in the past century that we’ve been able to divorce ourselves so much from our food that killing for food feels gut-wrenching.

I don’t know what that means. I don’t know if it’s good or bad. But it’s interesting. In my work, I’ve met a lot of people who raise livestock or hunt. They absolutely eat what they kill. And sometimes it even had a name.

Brianne

I think hunting is the most ethical way to go about it.

Bethany

Right. But it’s such a different relationship with animals compared to people who live far removed from their food.

Brianne

Yes. We're so far removed now that kids sometimes don’t even know where things come from. I remember a Jamie Oliver TV show ages ago – he held up a potato in front of school kids in England, and they didn’t know what it was.

And England lives on chips! They didn’t connect the two. We’re that far removed.

We don’t grasp death anymore. I read a book about this ages ago. Death is catastrophic and horrific, and it's not good. But a hundred years ago, as you said, we were more familiar with it.

Bethany

Yes, we had more familiarity.

Brianne

That’s the better word.

Bethany

I don’t know if it’s good.

Brianne

I don’t know if it’s bad.

Bethany

I can’t say.

Brianne

No. One last question – the "pest" designation. Are all pests introduced species? Or can an animal be a pest in its native environment if there’s just a lot of them? I’m thinking about conservation.

Bethany

Good question. We’re seeing a shift. People don’t use "pest" much anymore. They say "invasive species".

Brianne

"Invasive" is visceral.

Bethany

Yeah. And from a conservation standpoint, I get it. But also, an animal is invasive because we brought it somewhere expecting it to die, and it didn’t. It succeeded, and now we’re mad.

Brianne

That’s lovely.

Bethany

Or we brought something and expected it to stay under our control. Often it’s about control.

Brianne

Control is a good word.

Bethany

Exactly. I’ve got a whole section in the book on control and how it shapes our relationship with the natural world. We crave control, and we get angry when we don’t have it.

Brianne

We’ve never had it.

Bethany

It’s a lie. It’s all a lie.

Some animals are even shifting habitats because of climate change. Salamanders, for example, are moving north in the eastern US.

Brianne

Like the Lone Star tick.

Bethany

Exactly. Nobody likes those. But salamanders moving north are called "climate refugees". When an animal moves naturally, we frame it neutrally or even positively. But when we move it and it thrives, we call it invasive.

It’s still an animal entering a new ecology and changing it. One is framed positively, the other negatively.

I don’t know if that’s right or wrong. I’ve looked at it through traditional conservation and compassionate conservation. Both have flaws and positives. But it’s fascinating how much this all ties back to our idea of where an animal "belongs".

Brianne

"Belongs." It’s all the language of control, isn’t it?

Bethany

It really is.

Brianne

We don’t see ourselves as part of it.

Bethany

Exactly. Many indigenous cultures don’t view their relationship with their environment as controlling in the same way.

Brianne

So is it predominantly Western?

Bethany

I wouldn’t call it Western – more agricultural and pastoral. Particularly intensive monoculture: "I have this field of wheat," "I have this flock of sheep."

That’s different from indigenous agriculture, which often achieves just as much success without intensive monoculture. Different methods bring different mindsets.

Brianne

It's so interesting. I love thinking about thinking, which sounds very self-indulgent, but thinking about why you think things about things, which is basically what this entire conversation has been about, and why we designate certain animals certain things. I honestly, I could talk to you for ages, but it's quite a little bit longer than I

Brianne

promised you it would be. So I have two more questions for you. Do you have any more fascinating stories like the Reuters pigeon story? And do you - well, you do, obviously your book's full of them. What would be your favourite one?

Bethany

It's tough. I have a lot of really - so I met a man who kept two Burmese pythons in his pants.

Brianne

I was not - didn't think you were going to say pants.

Bethany

Pants like trousers.

Brianne

But Burmese pythons are not small.

Bethany

No, they're not.

Brianne

Jeez.

Bethany

Okay. He was not wearing the pants at the time.

Brianne

Oh, okay.

Bethany

To be clear. His name is Mike Cove. He is a mammologist. He's actually at North Carolina State University and the North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences. Really nice guy. Talked to him again just the other day.

Mike was hiking in the Everglades in, I want to say 2006. He was doing a solo multi-day backpacking trip in the Everglades. He's hiking along and he sees this snake and he's like, "Wow, that's a really pretty snake."

Bethany

And he's like, "Wait, that's a Burmese python. That shouldn't be here."

Brianne

They're wreaking havoc, aren't they?

Bethany

Being a scientist, he catches it. Then he's sitting there holding this snake, thinking, "I don't have a bag."

So he removes his trousers, ties the ends, and puts the snake in there. As he's hiking, he finds two more snakes and adds them to his "bag".

By the way, this is an overnight camping trip. So he comes back, pantsless, to turn in his backcountry permit the next day at the National Park Station and says, "Hey, I've got this bag of snakes back here. What do I do with these snakes? These are invasive."

The lady just looks at him and goes, "I've got a better question for you, dear. What happened to your pants?"

He did a two-day hiking trip in his underwear with a bag full of pythons.

Bethany

So yeah, that's one of my favourites.

Brianne

Okay, what did they do with them? Or do I not want to know?

Bethany

Oh, you don't want to know.

Brianne

You don't want to know. Okay. They should ship them to me. New Zealand would get really mad about it, but I'd be okay with a house full of Burmese pythons.

I promise you I wouldn't move to Australia. I love the idea of waking up one day and finding - I know all the Australians are going, "No, you wouldn't. They're all venomous." Okay, I appreciate that. Yes. But beautiful nonetheless.

Bethany

I say venomous, yes. But are they aggressive?

Brianne

Most snakes aren't. I know you get anecdotal evidence that says an Eastern Brown is particularly aggressive, but is it true or just anecdotal? I don't know.

Bethany

Some are more aggressive than others, but most, no. It's exhausting. Why would they want to do that?

Brianne

No, they're not going to eat you. There's no benefit to them in that at all.

But if you've been bitten by a snake, I imagine it's a somewhat traumatic experience.

My last question for you - which I ask everybody and refuse to prepare people for - if you were supreme overlord and you had the power to do anything you liked, what would be the first thing you'd do to make the world a better place?

There's so many options. That's why a lot of people just go with a joke answer. Understandable.

Bethany

I mean, I - but the thing is, I think the long-term thing that solves climate change is giving everybody a really big dose of empathy.

Brianne

Oh, I thought you were going to say education.

Bethany

No, I'd give everybody a big dose of empathy.

Brianne

Mm. I like that.

I find it very hard to believe - perhaps this is naive of me - that people make these decisions and do these things we're all aware of. I don't know why I'm stepping around saying what they are; there's just so many.

I find it hard to understand their motivation. It can't be bad, because people aren't evil.

Brianne

And then you sort of come to the conclusion that actually, there is no good motivation

Bethany

And there are just people out there that don't have empathy, which is such a weird concept.

On a more jokey answer, I think we could all use an ice cream truck on every corner with free ice cream. That would improve a lot of lives.

Brianne

I nearly fell over when I found out that Aotearoa eats the most ice cream per capita - in the world.

Bethany

Really?

Brianne

Yeah, by a significant margin, bizarrely.

Bethany

Y'all out there living your best life.

Brianne

Bizarre, but cool. We're the ice cream Olympians.

That was fascinating and probably not the direction I expected. I'm fascinated about pigeons and sort of depressed. I might start a pigeon rescue.

Brianne

Oh my God. We didn't talk about raccoons. Are they in your book?

Bethany

Next time. Love raccoons. They are.

Brianne

Good. Because I cried the first and only time I've seen one.

Bethany

You don't not like them.

Brianne

Oh no, I do like them. I just cry.

Bethany

I understand it. Part of what makes something a pest is being common.

Bethany

We're too used to them.

Brianne

You see tourists in New Zealand taking photos of sheep and people mock them. But they've never seen them!

Bethany

Oh no, we've seen sheep. We're not heathens.

Brianne

No, it's usually Chinese tourists from Shanghai who've never seen a sheep. We shouldn't mock them.

I always adored raccoons. The first time I saw one in Florida - snakes too - it was the best day of my life.

Bethany

Someday I will visit New Zealand.

Brianne

Yes! Let me know and I'll show you our boring wildlife. We don't have anything fun.

Bethany

Green flightless bird that humped that guy's head.

Brianne

Kākāpō?

Bethany

Yes!

Brianne

Everybody loves the kākāpō.

Bethany

Because it humped that guy's head.

Brianne

That man is famous only for that.

Bethany

Oh yeah, that poor man.

Brianne

Was it the camera guy or sound guy?

Bethany

Camera guy.

Brianne

He was patient. Poor guy.

Thank you, you're amazing.

Bethany

Thank you so much.

Brianne

Well, I don't know about you, but I feel a bit depressed. Fascinating but sad. The things we've done to animals.

Bethany's point about control is so true. The pigeon story is the worst.

The cat conversation is relevant for Aotearoa. Cats kill up to 100 million birds here each year. Feral cats cause ~70%, domestic cats 20–30%.

People think cats are happier roaming. But I saw a TikTok saying letting them roam is neglecting their safety.

I believe if you own cats, you shouldn't let them roam. People argue cats need to roam - well, why are dogs different?

If you own cats, you should ensure they don't kill wildlife.

Anyway, food for thought.

Bethany's amazing, go follow her.